能源部长克里斯·赖特与达娜·巴什一起讨论特朗普在林赛·格雷厄姆法案中豁免俄罗斯制裁以及他购买俄罗斯柴油的举措。巴什还追问了他政府在遏制油价方面的困难。
Energy Secretary Chris Wright joins Dana Bash to discuss Trump waiving Russian sanctions in the Lindsey Graham Act and his moves to purchase Russian diesel. Bash also presses him on the administration’s struggle to rein in gas prices.
政策 乌克兰和对俄罗斯的政策。现在与我一起的是能源部长克里斯·赖特。非常感谢您今天早上来到这里。周五晚上，特朗普总统发布了一项豁免令，使俄罗斯免受将于今天早上生效的林赛·格雷厄姆制裁法的约束。该法律的目的是在俄乌战争期间在财政上压榨俄罗斯。总统为何决定豁免这些制裁？>> 首先，我们应该明白，达娜，对俄罗斯的主要制裁仍然全部有效。
POLICY UKRAINE AND TOWARDS RUSSIA. HERE WITH ME NOW IS ENERGY SECRETARY CHRIS WRIGHT. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE THIS MORNING. ON FRIDAY NIGHT, PRESIDENT TRUMP ISSUED A WAIVER EXEMPTING RUSSIA FROM THE LINDSEY GRAHAM SANCTIONS LAW THAT WAS SET TO GO INTO EFFECT THIS MORNING. THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW WAS TO SQUEEZE RUSSIA FINANCIALLY AMID ITS WAR WITH UKRAINE. WHY DID THE PRESIDENT DECIDE TO WAIVE THESE SANCTIONS? >> FIRST, WE SHOULD UNDERSTAND, DANA, THAT THE MAIN SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA ARE ALL STILL ON.
俄罗斯想要出口的是石油。而且我们不仅对俄罗斯石油实施制裁，而且这些制裁是有史以来最严厉的。我们制裁了他们最大的石油公司。如今几乎所有的俄罗斯石油都必须卖给中国，以折扣价出售，并且存在较长的延迟。因此，特朗普总统仅对柴油出口豁免了制裁。而俄罗斯在过去一个月左右无法出口的唯一东西是什么？
WHAT RUSSIA WANTS TO EXPORT IS OIL. AND NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE SANCTIONS ON RUSSIAN OIL, BUT THE TIGHTEST EVER. WE SANCTION THEIR BIGGEST OIL COMPANIES. ALMOST ALL RUSSIAN OIL NOW MUST GO TO CHINA, SOLD AT A DISCOUNT, SOLD AT A LONG DELAY. SO PRESIDENT TRUMP WAIVED SANCTIONS JUST ON DIESEL EXPORTS. AND WHAT'S THE ONE THING RUSSIA HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO EXPORT OVER THE LAST MONTH OR SO?
柴油，因为他们柴油短缺。全球也柴油短缺。而特朗普总统一直在不懈地寻找为美国人带来成本缓解的方法。因此，如果俄罗斯能够向市场提供额外的柴油并出口，这将使美国消费者受益。这也将使世界受益。但实现这一目标的唯一方法是减少他们与伊朗的冲突。我的意思是，与乌克兰或达成能源停火。他正在施加压力，这既能惠及美国消费者，又能为俄乌战争中的和平迈出一步。
DIESEL, BECAUSE THEY'RE SHORT OF DIESEL. THE WORLD IS SHORT OF DIESEL. AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IS RELENTLESSLY LOOKING FOR WAYS TO BRING COST RELIEF TO AMERICANS. SO IF RUSSIA CAN BRING ADDITIONAL DIESEL TO THE MARKET AND EXPORT IT, IT WOULD BENEFIT AMERICAN CONSUMERS. IT WOULD BENEFIT THE WORLD. BUT THE ONLY WAY TO GET THERE IS TO IS TO REDUCE THEIR CONFLICT WITH IRAN. I MEAN, WITH WITH UKRAINE OR TO MAKE AN ENERGY CEASE FIRE. HE'S HE'S PUTTING PRESSURE THAT WOULD BOTH BENEFIT AMERICAN CONSUMERS AND BE A STEP FORWARD FOR PEACE IN THE RUSSIA-UKRAINE WAR. >> OKAY.
好的。所以有很多>> 需要梳理的内容。首先，就是您刚才说的最后一点。所以现在美国的立场是施压乌克兰，而不是俄罗斯。>> 哦，这是在施压俄罗斯。俄罗斯没有柴油可供出口。他们获得额外柴油以供出口的唯一方法是如果他们减少与乌克兰的冲突。他们必须要么实现能源停火，要么结束战争，要么减少战争努力。只有这样他们才能有额外的柴油可供出口。但这并不是对俄罗斯采取软弱政策。
SO A LOT >> TO UNPACK THERE. FIRST OF ALL, JUST THE LAST THING YOU SAID. SO NOW THE U.S. STANCE IS TO PRESSURE UKRAINE, NOT RUSSIA. >> OH, THIS IS PRESSURING RUSSIA. RUSSIA DOES NOT HAVE DIESEL TO EXPORT. THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN GET ADDITIONAL DIESEL TO EXPORT IS IF THEY TURN DOWN THE CONFLICT WITH UKRAINE. THEY HAVE TO EITHER GET AN ENERGY CEASE FIRE. THEY HAVE TO EITHER END THE WAR OR THEY HAVE TO REDUCE THEIR WAR EFFORTS. SO THEY HAVE ADDITIONAL DIESEL TO EXPORT.
但为什么。为什么没有激励措施？为什么没有满足这一需求？抱歉。我很抱歉。为什么在制裁柴油之前没有满足这一需求？顺便说一下，我想回到林赛·格雷厄姆法案，因为你们刚才在谈论柴油。但当我们谈到这个问题时，是在俄罗斯同意……嗯，缓和局势或真的结束对乌克兰的战争之前达成的协议，但根据所有说法，战争实际上一直在升级。
BUT THIS IS NOT A GOING SOFT ON RUSSIA. >> BUT WHY. >> WASN'T INCENTIVE? >> WHY WASN'T THAT DEMAND MET? FORGIVE ME. I'M SORRY. WHY WASN'T THAT DEMAND MET BEFORE THE DIESEL SANCTIONS? AND BY THE WAY, I DO WANT TO GET BACK TO THE LINDSEY GRAHAM ACT BECAUSE YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT DIESEL NOW. BUT WHILE WE'RE ON THIS WAS THE THE DEAL MADE BEFORE RUSSIA AGREED TO, UM, TONE DOWN OR REALLY COME TO AN END WITH THE WAR AGAINST UKRAINE, BUT BECAUSE BY ALL ACCOUNTS, IT'S BEEN INTENSIFYING. >> WELL, THE WAR THE WAR HAS GONE ON FOR FOUR AND A HALF YEARS.
嗯，战争已经持续了四年半。因此，特朗普总统正试图做的是找出哪种不同的方式能够带来和平。显然，理性的对话和谈判已经不起作用。他一直在寻找创新。这实际上是一个相当创新的举措。世界目前最需要的能源是什么？柴油。俄罗斯目前无法提供什么？柴油。这实际上是促使俄罗斯想办法如何真正出口一些柴油的动机。
AND SO WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO IS FIND WHAT DIFFERENT WAY WILL LEAD TO PEACE. CLEARLY RATIONAL CONVERSATION DIALOGS HAVE NOT WORKED. HE'S ALWAYS LOOKING FOR INNOVATIONS. THIS IS QUITE INNOVATIVE ACTUALLY. WHAT DOES THE WORLD NEED MOST OF ALL FOR ENERGY RIGHT NOW? DIESEL. WHAT IS RUSSIA NOT ABLE TO SUPPLY RIGHT NOW? DIESEL. THIS IS A MOTIVATION FOR RUSSIA TO FIGURE OUT HOW THEY CAN ACTUALLY EXPORT SOME DIESEL. >> SO WHAT DO YOU SAY TO SO MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING MANY FELLOW REPUBLICANS, WHO SAY IT'S NOT A MOTIVATION, IT'S A CAPITULATION? >> NO, BECAUSE THEY MISUNDERSTOOD THIS.
那么，你对这么多人，包括许多 fellow 共和党人，他们说这不是动机，而是投降，有什么话说？不，因为他们误解了这一点。人们。能源问题很复杂，不幸的是。所以人们听到这个后会想，哦，我们对俄罗斯变得软弱了。现在他们可以出口所有能源，而美国人将购买它。事实完全不是这样。俄罗斯想出口石油。我们对他们的石油没有减少任何制裁。
PEOPLE. ENERGY IS COMPLICATED, UNFORTUNATELY. SO PEOPLE HEAR THIS AND THEY THINK, OH, WE'VE GONE SOFT ON RUSSIA. NOW THEY CAN EXPORT ALL THEIR ENERGY AND AMERICANS ARE GOING TO BUY IT. THAT'S NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING AT ALL. RUSSIA WANTS TO EXPORT OIL. WE HAVE REDUCED ZERO SANCTIONS ON THEIR OIL.
他们只能以深度折扣价将石油卖给一两个国家，以规避我们的制裁。我们给他们的是一个具体的东西。柴油。你用柴油做什么？你用柴油打仗。那么，你的意思是……你说的是柴油。那么，你的意思是，除非美国允许俄罗斯出口柴油，否则美国和全球的汽油价格无法下降，顺便说一下，有很多专家表示，即使真的发生了，这也不会产生太大影响。我们有很多努力来降低柴油价格。
THEY ONLY CAN SELL THEIR OIL DEEPLY DISCOUNTED TO 1 OR 2 COUNTRIES IN TO EVADE OUR SANCTIONS. WE ARE GIVING THEM A SPECIFIC THING. DIESEL. WHAT DO YOU USE DIESEL FOR? YOU MAKE WAR WITH DIESEL. >> SO WHAT YOU'RE. >> SAYING IS DIESEL. >> SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT AMERICAN AND GLOBAL GAS PRICES CAN'T COME DOWN UNLESS THE U.S. ALLOWS RUSSIA TO EXPORT DIESEL, WHICH, BY THE WAY, THERE ARE LOTS OF EXPERTS WHO SAY THAT'S NOT GOING TO MAKE MUCH OF A DENT, EVEN IF IT'S HAPPENING >> WE HAVE MANY WE HAVE MANY EFFORTS TO BRING DIESEL PRICES DOWN.
我们一直在与欧洲的盟友合作，释放柴油储备。他们拥有过剩的柴油储备。我们还与炼油厂合作，扩大其产能。我们即将启动该国数十年来首次建造的炼油厂。我们正在采取各种措施以提高能源产量。特朗普总统每天都在思考如何增加能源供应以推动价格。>> 部长先生，我确实想回到我最初提出的问题，那就是关于林赛·格雷厄姆法案、对俄罗斯的经济制裁，这与您正在讨论的柴油交易完全无关。总统为什么要这样做？
WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH OUR ALLIES IN EUROPE TO RELEASE DIESEL STORES. THEY HAVE EXCESS DIESEL STORES. WE'VE WORKED WITH OUR REFINERIES TO EXPAND THEIR CAPACITY. WE'RE ABOUT TO LAUNCH THE FIRST REFINERY CONSTRUCTED IN THIS COUNTRY IN DECADES. WE'RE DOING ALL SORTS OF THINGS TO GROW ENERGY PRODUCTION. PRESIDENT TRUMP EVERY DAY IS FIGURING OUT HOW TO INCREASE ENERGY SUPPLY TO DRIVE PRICES. >> MR. SECRETARY, I DO WANT TO GET BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION I ASKED, WHICH IS ABOUT THE LINDSEY GRAHAM ACT, ECONOMIC SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA, SEPARATE AND APART FROM THIS DIESEL DEAL THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. WHY DID THE PRESIDENT DO THAT?
这不是林赛·格雷厄姆法案，它与对俄罗斯的经济制裁无关。它是关于对与俄罗斯进行贸易的国家实施经济制裁。其中有两个国家具有重要意义：中国和印度。我们正在与中国就这场冲突以及我们之间长期贸易关系进行讨论。他没有终止林赛·格雷厄姆的制裁。他只是暂停了执行。为什么？目前如此。>> 他有30天时间来审查它。>> 因为目前这场冲突中有很多变动因素。这些权力仍然存在，供他在适当时机使用。>> 你曾在这档节目上在三月份说，当与伊朗的战争刚开始时，汽油价格将在几周内下降，而不是几个月。而现在我们已经过去了几个月，中期选举还有两周就要到了，美国人仍然面临加油站创纪录的高价。政府是否让美国人失望了？>> 没有。我们没有。丹，我认为你应该知道这一点。我认为你对此很清楚。今年一月，在冲突爆发之前，伊朗政府就杀死了3万到4万自己的公民。你是否愿意接受一个目前掌权且拥有核武器的伊朗政权？我不认为有人会对此感到舒适。当我们在三月份讨论时，我说冲突部分——即我们正在进行的积极进攻——将在四、五或六周内结束。而汽油价格确实下降了。但它们从未真正接近过。>> 那么。>> 你对……感到舒适吗？>> 汽油价格。>> 现在是多少？每加仑5美元？不，当然我不感到舒适，但我很高兴它们正在下降。它们在过去几周里一直在下降，柴油价格也是如此，并且它们将继续下降。这就是特朗普总统每天在努力的事情。当然，他还必须对抗那些在州一级和联邦层面已有15年历史、专注于提高能源价格的民主党政策。>> 是啊。嗯。>> 这就是对比。
SO THIS IS IT'S NOT LINDSEY GRAHAM ACT IS NOT ABOUT ECONOMIC SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA. IT'S ABOUT ECONOMIC SANCTIONS ON COUNTRIES THAT TRADE WITH RUSSIA. THERE'S TWO OF THOSE THAT ARE MEANINGFUL. CHINA AND INDIA. WE'RE IN DISCUSSIONS WITH CHINA ABOUT BOTH THIS CONFLICT AND ABOUT LONG TERM TRADE RELATIONS BETWEEN US. HE DIDN'T HE DIDN'T END LINDSEY GRAHAM'S SANCTIONS. HE'S JUST SUSPENDED THE ENFORCEMENT OF WHY? FOR NOW. >> HE HAD. 30 DAYS TO LOOK AT IT. >> BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF MOVING PARTS IN THIS CONFLICT RIGHT NOW. THOSE POWERS ARE ALL STILL THERE FOR HIM TO BE USED AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME. >> YOU SAID BACK ON THIS SHOW IN MARCH, WHEN THE WAR WITH IRAN FIRST BEGAN, THE GAS PRICES WOULD BE LOWER WITHIN WEEKS, NOT MONTHS. AND HERE WE ARE SEVERAL MONTHS LATER, WITH THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS TWO WEEKS AWAY, AMERICANS ARE STILL FACING RECORD PRICES AT THE PUMP. HAS THE ADMINISTRATION LET AMERICANS DOWN? >> NO. WE HAVEN'T. AND AND, DAN, I THINK YOU SHOULD BE I THINK YOU'RE WELL AWARE OF THAT. THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT KILLED 30 TO 40,000 OF THEIR OWN CITIZENS IN JANUARY OF THIS YEAR BEFORE THE CONFLICT. ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH A NUCLEAR ARMED IRANIAN REGIME THAT'S IN POWER RIGHT NOW? I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS COMFORTABLE WITH THAT. AND WHEN WE DISCUSSED IN MARCH, I SAID THE CONFLICT PART, THE ACTIVE WAR, THAT WE WERE THE ACTIVE ATTACKS WE WERE MAKING WOULD BE OVER IN FOUR OR 5 OR 6 WEEKS. AND THEY WERE GASOLINE PRICES DID COME DOWN. THEY NEVER GOT REMOTELY CLOSE. >> SO ARE. >> YOU COMFORTABLE WITH WHERE. >> GAS PRICES. >> ARE NOW? $5 A GALLON? NO, OF COURSE I'M NOT COMFORTABLE, BUT I'M HAPPY THEY'RE COMING DOWN. THEY'VE GONE DOWN THE LAST FEW WEEKS, AS HAVE DIESEL PRICES, AND THEY WILL CONTINUE TO COME DOWN. THAT'S WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WORKS ON EVERY DAY. AND OF COURSE HE HAS TO WORK AGAINST DEMOCRATIC POLICIES THAT AT THE STATE LEVEL AND FEDERAL LEVEL FOR 15 YEARS HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON RAISING ENERGY PRICES. >> YEAH. WELL. >> THAT'S THE CONTRAST. >> I HOPE YOU'RE RIGHT THAT ENERGY PRICES ARE COMING DOWN.
我希望你所说的能源价格正在下降是正确的。我一直在外面巡回演讲，
I'VE BEEN OUT ON THE TRAIL, AND